Ep1: How Silence Changes Everything – Alice Teall, DNP, APRN-CNP, NC-BC, FAANP

Episode 1: Integrative Nurse Coach Alice Teall, DNP, APRN-CNP, NC-BC, FAANP

Nicole Vienneau

Welcome, everyone, to Integrative Nurse Coaches in Action! My name is Nicole Vienneau. I am your host. And today we invite Alice Teall, who is Director of Graduate Wellness, Academic Programming, Director of Innovative Telehealth Services, and Assistant Professor of Clinical Nursing at Ohio State University. Welcome, Alice.

Alice Teall

Thank you, Nicole. I’m so excited to be here and to be talking with you today.

Nicole Vienneau

I am thrilled that you are joining us as we talk about all things Integrative Nurse Coaching.

Alice Teall

One of my favorite topics.

Nicole Vienneau

I know it is and so I was thrilled when you said, “Yes! Let’s have an interview. Let’s have a chat about things we’re passionate about.”

Alice Teall

Absolutely.

Nicole Vienneau

So let’s take a very brief, very quick journey back to when you realized that Nursing was going to be one of your professions or your profession.

Alice Teall

Okay, so that is kind of a far look back because I have been a Nurse for 37 years. And it’s interesting when I look back at this journey now because when I started college, I was a pre-med major and an education major and I just was very uncertain, and I was very unsure. I didn’t feel like I fit with my fellow students.

And I remember doing— and this is honestly how I came to Nursing— I did like a career and personality test and it matched with Nursing. So, I left pre-med and education and I entered a diploma program and became a Nurse. And it’s just so interesting to me because decades later, I’m an Advanced Practice Nurse and a Nurse Educator, so I think I was on the right track, I just took an obscure route to get here.

Nicole Vienneau

As I’ve talked to more and more Nurses, some of us know exactly that we want to be Nurses and then some of us take a roundabout way. But in your case, 37 years later…

Alice Teall

I love being a Nurse. I think Nursing has served me well, too. Again, when I look back, I think the part that called me to clinical practice— where I thought: okay, I’ll be a pre-med major—is real; what I was missing was the caring part.

And that’s what I learned in Nursing: that practice of caring and what that means to be with people, and also, I think the education major— I always knew I wanted to be a teacher. And you know, you get to teach in Nursing in this, like, really one-on-one, amazing way. And so yes, I didn’t grow up knowing, but some part of me, I think, did always know.

Nicole Vienneau

Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. So how and when did you get attracted to Nurse Coaching?

Alice Teall

So, this is also an interesting story. I had been a Nurse Educator for more than 25 years and an Advanced Practice Nurse for more than 20 and what I recognized in teaching Nurses to be Nurse Practitioners was that more and more, Nurses didn’t really know how to really work with people and address their health risks and their health behaviors, and to really partner with them to get well.

And I was spending a lot of time, in teaching and in practice, trying to figure out this, you know, I was always looking for a magic equation of how to get somebody to change their behavior. And so, we had lots of conversation about that and we really talked a lot about coaching strategies, motivational interviewing, appreciative inquiry, listening to people. And so this was how I got to Nurse Coaching, and this was what I was teaching students, I didn’t have a word for it.

But what I recognized in my doctoral program— so you know, I’d been a Nurse a really long time, and I decided to enter a DNP program— and in that, what I recognized, our clinicians didn’t really know (whether they were physicians or nurses or social workers) was how to partner with people for behavior change. And so, my doctoral work was: does it matter, to teach people to use coaching strategies? Will they use them? Does that matter?

And so, the short answer is, it does matter. Right? Not only does it matter to the person using the coaching strategies, because they can feel effective, but it matters to the person they’re coaching because instead of being told what to do, they now recognize they have a strength, that they can change behavior. They have to really look at those strengths and barriers.

And I’m telling you all of this because as I was doing my doctoral work to say: did it matter? I just kind of happened upon a colleague in the hallway at Ohio State who said, “You’re teaching coaching strategies. Hmm.” And I was like, “Yeah”, and he’s like, “and how do you know those coaching strategies?”

And I kind of laughed and said, “like, well, I don’t know, just like everything, right? I just read about it and learn about it”. And so, he introduced me to this Nurse Coach thing and what that meant, and to the INCA [Integrative Nurse Coach Academy] program. So as part of my doctoral work, I went to INCA and became certified as a Nurse Coach and learned there was a little more than just a few strategies that I could use in clinical practice.

Nicole Vienneau

Wonderful. So, as you took the Integrative Nurse Coach Academy, or the International Nurse Coach Association’s Program, where did you find your biggest impact to your practice?

Alice Teall

So, here’s the thing, and you know, this Nicole, since you are a Nurse Coach, but to those who are listening, who are thinking about being a Nurse Coach and completing this program, the thing I learned the most was the importance of self-care.

This piece, and I look back now, and in some of those day long sessions, where we would start with silence, I was so uncomfortable, and like, “when are you going to get to the part where you teach me about the coaching stuff? I do not have time for silence.  Just hurry up!”

Like I wanted to make an impact, I wanted to make a difference, I wanted to teach it to people, and I could not slow down, and I just didn’t. And not only that, I wanted to teach it to people and make them inspire people for behavior change in like two minutes. That’s just who I was.

I didn’t start this Nurse Coaching journey— I started it as an offhand conversation in a hallway— I didn’t come into it because I had a holistic practice. Like, I didn’t even understand holistic nursing truly at that time, and I remember— and I felt bad for my cohort, my colleagues at the time because some of them understood mindfulness and being centered and listening in a really amazing way, and I was the one jittering my leg like, “are we going to get to the actual strategy? like, wow?”

And so, what I learned was not just that I had to be well to partner with people on wellness, but I had to do a practice that involved actually taking care of myself. And I, I think it was such a valuable piece, especially in context now, we’re in a pandemic, and of the Nurse burnout and the mental health issues within the pandemic. It prepared me so well and I am so grateful.

But that was the piece, that self-care piece, that I didn’t really understand when I was teaching the strategies.

Nicole Vienneau

I laughed when you first started saying that because, Alice, I too was the one jiggling my legs and rolling my eyes at silence.

Alice Teall

I’m surprised by that, Nicole, because I know you’re holistic. That’s funny. Whoo! Yes!

Nicole Vienneau

I thought: “What am I doing here? When are we going to get to the stuff that I came here for, that I paid all this money for, and spent all this time”, right?

Alice Teall

Really, we’re gonna have silence?

Nicole Vienneau

Right? But then I discovered the importance of silence and the importance of reflection, self-reflection, self-love, self-grace, and in silence, being able to find that. Whereas what you mentioned, you know, the ongoing, inability to sit still, because we were looking for the answers.

Alice Teall

We’re doing important work here.

Nicole Vienneau

So, can you define what self-care really means to you?

Alice Teall

When I think about self-care, I think about doing something that really allows me to have joy or experience wellness in it. There’re so many dimensions, right? It isn’t just physical wellness, it might be emotional or spiritual, it might be social. There’re so many dimensions to that. But self-care means to me that I did something that was nurturing in some dimension of my wellness, and it really doesn’t have to be complicated but the more that I practice it, the more that I’m able to engage in it.

Whether it is that two minutes, you know, whether it is the five breaths, or whether it’s truly that I recognize that emotional turmoil and chaos in myself that says: you need to go outside and take a walk with your dog now. Right? Sometimes the answers are so simple and that’s usually how I know that they’re right.

Nicole Vienneau

Thank you for sharing that. So, if we move into more of the Nurse, I mean, the Nurse Coaching definitions and how you’re utilizing Nurse Coaching in your practice, in your vision of that, I’m curious to know, and I know our listeners are curious to know, how you define Nurse Coaching in your world?

Alice Teall

Okay, so in my world when I think about the one word, it’s always partnership.  It’s always partnership and in that, connection that’s so valuable. And so, Nurse Coaching is really a process. It’s purposeful and it’s strength based and it is intended to connect with someone in a way that creates this really valuable partnership.

And that partnership allows people to develop self-confidence and to take steps towards their wellness. And so, when I think about connecting, I think about creating partnership and I think that that’s where people can really then make a change.

Nicole Vienneau

When they truly feel connected. And you mentioned at the beginning, of letting go of fixing, of letting go of telling people what to do.

Alice Teall

What to do, how to do, when to do it. So, I would say this to people, I made a career out of telling people what to do. Come to see me, if you’re not well, I will give you a list. I am really good at taking people’s inventory and not my own.

But what I realized is even if I’m seeing someone in a 10- or 15-minute visit or I’m having a short conversation, it actually and this is the thing…

Okay, so let me say let me before I say this, let me just give some context.

I have a lot of colleagues who are Advanced Practice Nurses who think that coaching is not something that they can do within a typical kind of say, primary care practice, because it takes too long. And so, what I would say is you can actually do this in short visits, you can do it in longer visits, you can do it in wellness visits, it really is about an approach and that’s why I started with connection and partnership because, you know, I’ve had people who are like: oh, I can’t see you as a coach. So, I don’t have that long a time and like sometimes it’s a check-in. We can have that conversation in five minutes.

Sometimes we have to delve a little deeper. And so, my vision of coaching is integrating this as really the process for everything I do.  I am not effective as a nurse or as a nurse practitioner, and even as an educator if you don’t know I am listening to you.

Right?   The thing that used to frustrate me, is like, I want people to know what I know. And here’s the thing, even knowing what I know doesn’t mane me well. It’s not about, like, that’s what we learn as nurses, at some point we learn, right? A lot of things people need are lack of knowledge. And I’m not saying there’s not a lack of knowledge.

So, if you know somebody who was newly diagnosed with diabetes, there’s some knowledge they might need. But the problem is, we stay in that framework of giving people knowledge and that’s not what most people need. Most people need connection. Most people need to know that they have the ability within themselves to make a change that they want to make, or to be well in an area where they want to be well, and that’s the difference.

And it can be done in short conversation and it can be done in long conversation. But that’s my vision, is that we go back to our roots in Nursing, of connecting with people in a meaningful way, because that’s actually how we are effective with our caring.

Nicole Vienneau

And so, do you have an example that may be tangible for someone listening? Maybe in a client who you’ve worked with, or have seen with a newer diagnosis, and what that might look like compared to a “regular”, I’m putting quotation marks around this, health care visit?

Alice Teall

Gosh, so many. So many things come to mind when you ask me that. One example that I have is I had someone who I was working with who shared with me her frustration, as somebody who had a new diagnosis of diabetes, that everybody was asking her if she was depressed. She’s like, “Why do they keep doing that? Am I supposed to be depressed?” And she was just really frustrated that she was constantly asked: “Have you been sad? Or are you finding that you’re having feelings of worthlessness or energy loss?”

It’s just the screening wasn’t really settling with her. And so, she asked me, and so this was after we had developed a partnership, we were having conversation about what she wanted to change, what she didn’t, and she asked me: “Why is it that they keep asking me about depression?”

And so, I just sat with her for a minute and then just said, “let’s talk about how this (new diagnosis of diabetes) has changed your lifestyle. Everything you’ve been thinking about, you know, has it changed what you eat, how you move, why you move?” As she processed it more slowly, she just started crying and, you know, I just said, “ooooh”. Sometimes people who have had a diagnosis that alters their lifestyle behaviors and their expectations do have moments of grief.

I think sometimes it’s just the validation. So I had to take a step away from the screening and then just allow her to have some time to really connect with her own feelings.

I think the other thing I think your listeners would be interested in and it kind of blends coaching with self-care.  During this pandemic, one of the ways that I’ve been using coaching, and I’m actually doing this with our current graduate students, is they are learning coaching techniques, and then they are partnering with Nurses across the country who are working in COVID hotspots, and they are providing them an opportunity to connect regarding their wellness.

And so, I think sometimes people don’t reach out for help because they don’t see themselves as needing help or struggling. You know, “I’m not depressed”, and “do I really need a nurse?  Do I really need to experience trauma and burnout before I reach out?

Or wouldn’t it be amazing if Nurses who are working hard could have a wellness partner, could have a Nurse Coach, could have somebody who connects with them so they can share and partner and discuss their wellness, and talk about, like, strength-based strategies to stay well?  So that’s what I’ve been doing this last year or creating, through this program, creating nurse practitioner students and nursing partnerships.

Nicole Vienneau

Yeah, when you speak of talking about things before they get to the point of burnout, and disease, you know, discussion before that happens, and creating opportunities for people to know that this type of work exists. And who better to talk to fellow Nurses than other Nurses?

Alice Teall

Nurses working with Nurses! It’s the most amazing thing.

Nicole Vienneau

Yes. And in that partnership, and in that connection, instead of checking the lists— which sometimes in healthcare we’re sometimes forced to do that— but Nurse Coaching offers us the opportunity to step aside and perhaps approach the checking-the-lists in a different way.

Alice Teall

I think that’s absolutely true. And, you know, I think that what we are learning- for a lot of different reasons- but what we are learning is that if we’re going to move from an illness-based culture to wellness based, this is part of that change. Like we don’t have to wait until people get sick for them to reach out to us. We don’t have to wait, as Nurses, until we’re burned out to say, “Wow, I really maybe need a little self-care.”  Right?

You know, I think that that’s what Nurse Coaching does, is it changes things, both for the Nurses themselves, and for the people who we partner with. I just would love it one day if people, you know, if individuals could say, “Wow, I’d really like to connect with my Nurse today.” You know, check in, call in, click in, you know, whatever, let’s have that connection. And you don’t have to feel off kilter to do that.

Nicole Vienneau

Yes, yes!

And I’d love to hear your thoughts on Nurses as health coaches versus layman people as health coaches.

Alice Teall

I think, and I’ve been asked this question a lot— because Ohio State has a coaching certificate program. And they have a health and wellness coaching certificate program and a Nurse coaching certificate program, and I support both of those. Now, in the health and wellness coaching program people don’t have to have a healthcare background but they can become health and wellness coaches. And I think that they bring their unique background to their coaching practice and that’s not a bad thing, that’s a good thing. The more people focused on wellness, the better.

But here’s the thing with Nurse Coaches: whatever I do, I bring my Nursing background with it. I can’t not bring me as a Nurse, because that’s who I am, and I think that by saying I’m a Nurse Coach, it acknowledges that part of me that’s a Nurse, which is caring, which has both a science and an art to it.

And so, I really like that acknowledgement. I think the other thing that’s so important, is it tells people if I’m a Nurse Coach, it tells them the framework that I’m coming from, and so many people trust Nursing.  I have a nursing license and am trusted, and I’m coaching in addition to that. And so, I think that’s the piece that I bring that’s unique.

So, I do coach differently than my colleague who has a different background, and that’s okay. I just like Nurse Coaching because it acknowledges that, right? If I had a different coaching certificate, I honestly don’t know how different that would be, but I love that it comes from a Nursing framework the same way that, you know, I might. I’m a Nurse Practitioner, I take that nursing framework into everything I do. And so, it resonates with me to be a Nurse Coach because it tells people where I’m coming from.

Nicole Vienneau

Yes. And you mentioned the trust aspect; that healthcare consumers do trust Nurses, and I was ecstatic to read in 2020. We are at the end of 2020, we as nurses are once again, voted number one in the Gallup polls for ethical standards.

Alice Teall

And amazing.

Nicole Vienneau

Yeah, and honesty.

Alice Teall

Yeah. Honesty, right. And I just think and for how many years has that been the case.

And, you know, here’s the thing, we know this as Nurses and people know this: It’s usually the Nurse that stands next to you during some of the most difficult times, right? It’s the nurse who has figured out what to say when others are uncomfortable.

You know, I was reflecting, before our conversation this morning, about the patients or individual clients along the way who’ve really impacted me and my work. And I kept going back to the truth of it is, it’s been Nurses along the way who have had the greatest impact on me. I’ve had times in my life— that I now call the series of unfortunate events— when I have gone through some difficult times related to family, like just, you know, life, basically, right?

Life isn’t always easy. And during some of the most difficult times, it was the Nurse who said: “Wow, this is really difficult.” Who acknowledged, who didn’t say: “You’re going to get better, this is all going to be fine, this is no big deal, it’s okay, you’re being dramatic”, or whatever other sort of silver lining type conversations were going on with people who weren’t comfortable.

Like, generally, people are not comfortable with people being sick, or having difficulties, or having trauma or, you know, all the things we do have as people, right? It’s the nature of being human. At some point, we’re going to struggle and it’s been Nurses who have been there to say: “This is really difficult” and “let’s talk about next steps for you.” Or, you know, “I see that you’re struggling, how are you feeling?”

{Nurses, } Who didn’t want to give the solution but were ready to stand there and stay there with me and allow for that. And those times have been just life altering for me. And to me, those are the people who come to mind when I talk about the importance of connection, and that’s why I think Nurse Coaching is, you know, part of what we do.

It can be integrated even for people who don’t have the certificate. I think that completing the INCA program and being certified as an Integrative Nurse Coach says: I took those strategies to a different level and I can independently now work with you as a Nurse Coach. And I also value that.

Nicole Vienneau

Yeah, taking your education another step? Yes, in enhancing the tools that are somewhat innate in many nurses, but we then elevate them to a higher standard.

Alice Teall

Yeah, absolutely.

Nicole Vienneau

Through the education through the practice. I mean, we had a lot of hours. Practice.

Alice Teall

A lot of hours, I learned a lot in those hours.

Nicole Vienneau

Yeah, and I love the parallel —and you’ve mentioned this a few times— the parallel of learning the strategies, learning the how to coach, the appreciative inquiry, the motivational interviewing, the powerful questioning, etc, etc. But the parallel of self-care, of learning about yourself, learning how to be yourself and being true to who you are, which is in essence, a huge tool that you utilize when you are in a session speaking with someone about difficult topics, potentially about wellness in their future, about what health or even illness means to that individual.

Alice Teall

Yeah, absolutely. I think the other thing, Nicole, you know, right now, because of the high levels of clinician burnout— and that’s really across the board and for any healthcare clinician, Nurses, physicians, social workers, physical therapists, respiratory therapists, even our community health workers, we see burnout everywhere.

Because if we think about people in our country, right now, we’ve got high levels of chronic disease, so one in two adults have a chronic disease, and one in four have more than two. So, we have this high level of chronic disease and then on top of that, we have all of this social isolation and because of the pandemic, we have lots of emotional exhaustion. And so right now, in the midst of all of that, there are times where if you talk about wellness and self-care and resilience, and it’s not deep or meaningful or really individualized, it sounds superficial.

And I don’t know if I have the right words for that but, you know, I’ve had colleagues who were like: “Oh, you’re the Director of Wellness and Academic Programming. Yay. So what are you going to tell me about my wellness today?” Like, it’s become almost cliche, or I don’t even know if that’s the word. But usually what I say is: “If reflection and self-care has not been a real part of what you’re doing, it can sound like one more thing you have to do. And so, let’s talk about that, let’s talk about where that comes from.”

It’s just this weird time of where we need to be connected more to each other, and also connected more to ourselves. You know, it’s, “Oh, golly, the dean at my college likes to talk about character builders and opportunities for that” which, I know this is an audio discussion and no one can see my face, but I couldn’t roll my eyes more. Because I’m always like, “Please, no more character builders.” But I think it’s true and I think sometimes it’s so hard to bring that out in ourselves.

And that’s why a Nurse Coach can help, right? A partner can help somebody to vent as well as help somebody to get through the venting, find the strength, and to partner with you to move forward. That’s what Nurse Coaches do.

Nicole Vienneau

Yes, we are helping you move forward.

Alice Teall

We are. So, well you want to, but I can just hear you know, so let’s talk about that.

Nicole Vienneau

So, tell me more. So where do you see Nurse Coaching leading healthcare?

Alice Teall

Okay, so I see Nurse Coaching as this fabulous tool that we have, as well as practitioners, clinicians who we have, that can really get us wellness focused, that I’m really seeing Nurse Coaches leading the way eye-to-eye.

I think this is what, again, you know, preventive care, like before anybody gets sick, what can we do or as somebody starts to feel sick, or has a disease process, what can be things that people can actually reach the level of wellness that they’d really like to be at?

I see Nurse Coaching as authentic leadership. I can see it integrated in education and in our leadership in our real ways to be with people. Again, I told you the story of the first week, being uncomfortable with silence.

It’s just funny now because I don’t tend to fill in the silence in the same way at all and I think, if on an individual level, becoming a Nurse Coach could change me like that, then I can totally see how these partnerships can make a difference in other people’s lives as well.

Nicole Vienneau

Leading by example. I just had to smile when you spoke of silence because as we educate more Nurses in the process of Nurse Coaching through the Integrative Nurse Coach Academy, we’re using the acronym WAIT: why am I talking? And I sometimes like to take it a little bit further with WAIST: why am I still talking?

Alice Teall

I learned that from my colleague who had originally told me, “Oh, you might want to think about this program.” I learned that from him. And whenever I go as a guest lecture in his course, I like to just take my time.

(laughter)

Nicole Vienneau

I love it. Well, is there anything else you’d like to share with us? Before we tie things up?

Alice Teall

One other thing, because I talked about, you know, what I’ve done with the Wellness Partner Program and the emotional support line, and I think the other thing that might be important to those who are listening who might have backgrounds like you and I did, Nicole, where we’re maybe uncomfortable with silence.

I know this to be true for me, I had spent decades learning evidence-based practice. I had spent a long time being grounded in science. And what I want to say about that is, you don’t give that up. Part of being evidence based is also considering the individual and understanding your own clinician expertise.

And if you’re not connected to self-care, you can’t connect to your expertise. If you don’t connect to the person, you can’t bring in their patient preferences. And so, it didn’t mean that in being holistic, that I had to not be science based, and that was really important to me. Because part of that trust and telling the truth is also understanding evidence. And I had to think, this is what you’re going to see the more of us there are, that are Nurse Coaches.

I was in the process at the time and have now completed the textbook and a handbook about advanced assessment. And so, in that handbook are also tips about in that textbook or tips about how to include wellness. Imagine that in your assessment? And there’s a whole chapter based on assessing yourself as a clinician, and even now I look at that and think: Okay, well I know where that came from.

Nicole Vienneau

Wonderful, thank you for adding that in there. As a Critical Care Nurse and Intensive Care Nurse, I really appreciate the last section that you just spoke of, because to me, science is very important. And protocol driven is how I run as a Critical Care Nurse. But yet, there’s the side of me that is so human, and in order to survive in such a traumatic environment, I need to connect to that humaneness for myself, for my personal self, but also for my patients, for my families, for my colleagues.

And having gone through such an in-depth program and then board certification, Nurse Coaching has allowed me the courage to show my humaneness on a deeper level, which then affects me in my self-care and my ability to work through some of the issues, so that I don’t get burned out, so that I can continue to practice.

Alice Teall

Well, and I think it that same thing, Nicole that you just discussed that allows us, like, go back to that conversation I had about the person who had was newly diagnosed with diabetes. And so, what we have learned is if we never talk about the impact on the person, or we never talk about mental health or impact of wellness, then that person’s actual outcomes related to their diabetes will not be what they could be. And that is true, that’s true.

So, you know, if somebody has hypertension, I can write, for the most, the evidence-based prescriptions related to their high blood pressure. But if I never talk about the impact, and I never talk about wellness, then they’re not going to have good outcomes. And if I don’t understand that, then I won’t be able to create a partnership. And so, to me, that shift to wellness changes, it’ll change, it will be much more effective with our outcomes. You know, the Nurse in the ICU like you were, if you can connect to that authentic humaneness, you’re going to give a whole different level of care.

Nicole Vienneau

Yeah. Yep. And be much more satisfied with the care I can provide.

Alice Teall

Oh Yes!  And we are losing people because of this disconnection, and that, to me, is the thing.

I started this with the statement about how much I love Nursing. I do love Nursing. I love Nurses, and that connect, we can’t lose that, it’s such a valuable piece. And that’s why we still get ranked as trusted. Right? And as caring. I am so happy to add to that. Absolutely.

Nicole Vienneau

So how can we find you, Alice? How can our listeners find you?

Alice Teall

Well, they can. So, I am I try not to hide.

Nicole Vienneau

You’re a very busy lady.

Alice Teall

Ha! I teach at Ohio State in terms of coaching, I actually teach a class every summer on the evidence base of health and wellness coaching. And I do that with our Nurse Coaching students, with our health and wellness coaching students. So, we all come together, and we have an evidence-based class.

So, you can find me on that course. And then I think I’ve given you links, Nicole, to the textbook and handbook that I talked about. And at Twitter, I’m at @TeallNP, and that does not reflect my employer, just my own opinion, but yeah, if somebody wants to connect with me, they can email me as well at teall.3@osu.edu and I’m happy to talk to people about Nurse Coaching. Just be careful, I like to tell stories, so give me a lot of time to talk!

Nicole Vienneau

We love that about you because it is all about story. So, I will definitely share all of your details in our show notes.

And I am so thankful, and our listeners are so thankful, for you sharing your wisdom here with us today, Alice.

Alice Teall

Oh, thank you, Nicole. It was such a great conversation. Happy to have been here.